Just out of interest......

Found this whilst looking for something else. How valid is this info? It somewhat contrasts what I believed to date..

www.cavinguk.co.uk/info/rescue.html

It’s nothing like the protocol I understand.

This is what I do;

Leave a note with a responsible person (I use my wife) noting;

1) Cave/Mine location (and name, Grid Ref if known)
2) Location of where my car will be parked (and the Reg number)
3) Expected time out
4) Number of people in the party identifying minors or inexperienced cavers

I include an instruction to wait for one hour to pass beyond the call out time (to allow for delays)

I include an instruction to ring 999 and ask for Police then cave rescue.


Cave Rescue will need to know where to go and how many they are looking for. They will first look for the car (if the car there they know you are still in the system).


If you are in a cave/mine with a party and there is an incident it is protocol for two people to leave (but the injured person should not be left alone which is where the preferred number of 4 comes from). Once out, you need to decide how quickly you can mobilise a rescue based on what you know. You can ring a member of your own club if you have their details and you believe that CRO will spring into action. If in doubt, ring 999, then ask for cave rescue (don’t delay).


There are many instances where less than 4 are in a party to leaving a note (above) is important.

I am very reserved about first aid training. “Normal” first aid is inadequate and can be dangerous especially to someone who has been hung up in ropes for a long time. A “Qualified” first aider may be prosecuted for bad practice but a normal “bod” would not be.

Just my thoughts ….

Ian

Thank you Ian.

Hopefully we will never be in that position, but...

Yes, I did rather feel that this is another self appointed expert. So many out there, and quite dangerous to those who don't know any better than to believe them!

I await further comments....

"You should only dial 999 or 120 if you do not know the number for the local manned police station. With mobile phones, they put you through to the emergency room operated by the mobile phone company, and frequently, these are not even located in the same country as you."

That's complete nonsense. Besides, if you ask for cave rescue, you're automatically connected to your nearest Police control room, it's the same drill with MRT.

Dialling your local police station is pointless, because they would have to relay all information you give them to their control room which you could have contacted yourself through 999.

Edit: I also assume when they say "dial 999 or 120", they actually mean 112?

I also agree with Ian on the first aid thing, as will anyone who's done a trauma course or CRO/MRT CasCare course.

"Remember, of course, that most cavers do not cave with triangular bandages"
Is this really true?! I carry enough medical gear to deal with a small train crash when I'm underground!

Just to clarify - you phone 999 ask for the police and then ask for cave rescue.

I disagree about the first aid though. Learning CPR could save someone's life - I personally know 2 cavers who've used it, one successfully. The likelihood of a 'young' fit person drowning and the difference of someone performing CPR immediately should make the case for it.

Also applying pressure to bleeding wounds and dressing appropriately can save people's limbs, especially in dangerous places like slate mines.

Also with regard to suspension trauma - you should follow the evidence compiled by a consultant anaesthetist for Edale MR and DCRO - broadly speaking: get them out of the harness asap - do not leave it on to keep from systemic shock - that is for crush injuries only, another area where some knowledge would come in handy.

A little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing but if you get training and follow it, it is highly unlikely that you can be prosecuted for it. Especially considering suspension trauma. Plus you might just save a mate's life.

Do not act on the advice above - it does not substitute for first aid training.

Hope that sort of helps!

Ross is spot on with the callout procedure, just remember to be ready to provide basic information about the lost/injured party.

I agree with the first aid comments, I think that anyone could and should benefit from a first aid certificate. Remember, first to aid! It might be a while before cave rescue and a Cascarer/doctor/paramedic can get to an injured party.

I have to be cautious about what I say, being a member of two cave rescue organisations. My comments to not nescseraly represent the views of the teams.

Ross,

I agree in "principle" that learning first aid is a good thing.

There are additional factors ....

A lot of us "haven't" learned first aid and most of "us" won't consider it a pre-requisite to do so.

CPR - yes, I get that. Apply pressure, yes I get that ...

First aid courses (and the certificates that come with them) teach you to place people in "recovery positions" - one of those positions can kill someone who has been hung up on ropes so I stand by my reservation about "normal" first aid training.

Also, please don't forget we live in a litigious society ....

I know your vocation and respect your advice and opinion

Ian

Not answering for Ross, but a outdoor first aid certificate teaches the scenarios you just mentioned Ian. I was taught to treat suspension trauma as a crush injury.

This changes on which doctors are arguing in the room around you and which CRO teams advice you are acting on.

I think sometimes doing nothing can be seen just as bad as doing something the wrong way. I would be hesitant to treat a casualty if I was unsure and would look to others for guidance.

Stop drinking Italian wine lol

I said .... "Normal" first aid courses - I have no issue with "dedicated" first aid courses (apart from the fact I don't want to be prosecuted).


The "law" recognises "qualifications" and does not recognise "experience" per se.

Who would you rather cave with;

1) A "fresher" newly qualified leader
2) A non-qualified 40 years experience caver

.... Just drawing parallels .... Drink less wine

Ian

No wine tonight, driving early

To an extent, I agree with you. I'm not a massive fan of the mine and cave leader scheme in a recreational perspective as an example.

There would have been no way I would have done the outdoor first aid and advanced casualty care certificates if I wasn't a member of CRO, so again, partially agree.

Speaking as just a caver - I would prefer to have the knowledge to save someone's life rather than to wish that I had done more at the time. Worrying about being used wouldn't really come into it.

I do see where you are coming from though, even though I haven't had wine

You are still talking about dedicated first aid (which I have not opposed) and not addressed the issue of liability ....

Are you sure you aren't drinking Italian wine ?



Ian

Ok, first aid at work certificate for example.

You draw from your knowledge of that to treat a casualty, you inadvently kill them.

You acted in a reasonable manor to the best of your knowledge, but you could be liable.

I'm not convinced. It's possible, although not 100%

Sorry, bad example ....

Court case law;

H&S director failed to note that an employee in a factory had sneaked his 9 year old son into work (son was ill) and told him to lay low in the canteen. Numerous other workers were "in on it". 9 Year old son gets bored and wanders onto the factory floor where he gets killed by a forklift truck driver.

All proper H&S rules have been followed and the 9 year old was concealed from the company. All employees fully trained and certificated.

HSE prosecute over the death and the court find that the presence of the child was concealed from the HSE director (who was only an employee himself).They find him "not guilty".

The CPS appeal and the appeal court state that it was the duty of the H&S director to know that the child was there and he was sentenced to 8 years.

That destroyed his life (he had a family, mortgage etc,) and it is now (and had been for two years) a case precedent).

So, acting in a reasonable manner is no defence - sorry.

Stop drinking Italian wine lol



Ian

You're never going to be prosecuted for doing first aid wrong. There's a thing called "the good samaritan law" which protects have a go heroes. provided you act, in what you believe to be, the casualties best interest.

The only people who can be held liable for medical negligence are professionally qualified health care providers. I.e Doctors, Paramedics, nurses etc.

I personally think even outdoor specific first aid courses are a load of sh*t. A couple of months ago there was a first aid course on at work for new staff, I wasn't on it, but happened to be working nearby when they did their scenarios. In the scenario, two people had a clash of heads and both were unresponsive. The "trainer" instructed the guys on the course to put both casualties in the recovery position, with absolutely no consideration given to the mechanism of injury or possibility of cervical spine injury. I realize this is only one trainer on one course, but there's no way it's an isolated thing.

So, if this was a real incident, and one of those casualties had a c-spine injury, the first aiders actions could have resulted in paralysis or even the casualties death, despite following the training they had been given.

My opinion is, unless you're medical training is being provided by a Paramedic, Doctor or other HCP it ain't worth jack.

Ian, again I don't think that your comparison is accurate. We could both draw on several court cases and be here all day discussing it.

The health and safety executive is paid. Your average caver with a standard first aid certificate is not.

I also work in health and safety in a specialised environment as of Monday and I look forward to arguing with you further into the future

Perhaps you are taking the same view as Tony Broklebank and applying it over a broader spectrum. The issue there is that DCC take a "donation" from members of the public around the mine. If someone is injured, the insurance would kick in? Still to be tested... If the insurance didn't cover it, surely then the prosecutors would go after club members to cover the rest.

Again, I honestly think that when a sum passes hands or an official is paid, it can change things dramatically.

Joel,

We may well not have comparisons right and I am most certainly coming at it from a “business” angle and not an amateur caving club angle.

If Iestyn is right about this then awesome;
Iestyn999 wrote:
“First Aid” may have exceptions but I am not aware other scenarios do.

Of course, the BCA insurance will cover 3rd party injury damages (AFAIK) but I am talking about a criminal prosecution.

I am also very aware that HSE have no interest in amateur clubs who do amateur things with no formal qualifications. However, they do take an interest when there is a “professional” involved.

If one of a group of friends got killed in an accident in a cave I expect it would be seen as a tragedy.

If a group of friends on a paid, commercial tour around a cave got killed you will expect HSE to be all over that like a rash.

What if the group of friends were on a non-commercial tour but being lead by the same professionally qualified leader – how would HSE look at that ?

…. Now apply that logic to a “qualified” first aider.

As I said, I hope Iestyn is right (I don’t know about the Good Samatian law).

And when you come over for a debate, bring a bottle of wine !



Ian

Ian wrote: Whether the recovery position would cause a toxic load after suspension trauma is still debated by doctors (there are other things to be worried about) but due to bolam principle in medical law you would be covered either way.

Moving a potential C spine injury - that COULD land you in trouble. There are often other considerations underground that means you'll have to do something like that as a first aider.

First aid practice is no substitute for experience but fortunately the latter is hard to come by! I think the basics in a 'normal' first aid course are still worth knowing for the underground. TBH I'm not sure how much more useful dedicated outdoor courses are other than suspension trauma and crush injury.

I'll try to think of more ways you could be 'in trouble', it's an interesting exercise...

My view. Act to the best of your knowledge. More knowledge is better. Good Samaritan law does exist and aims to abolish previous ridiculous cases where from the no win no fee mindset brigade. Let's not forget here that pretty much the only thing you as an amateur club member, member of public, can be charged with is negligence. Taking the time out to train yourself in basic first aid and being willing to act to the best of your ability would appear to be far removed from being negligent.

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Indeed.... Not doing either and knowingly enter, with others, what is obviously an environment that your sphere of knowledge clearly defines as a hazardous situation, without making an effort to have first aid capacity 'could' be suggested as being negligent
ent. Don't shy away from learning and doing the right thing as a human being.

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